Good post Markus - but it would be helpful as well to show to bait that these networks claim and what you really get. Meaning, what to look out for and is it truthful so they care be armed with the right knowledge. Cause the sad thing is they don't know what to believe or trust because it's not out there - so they get trapped in mess like this.

Well Dede to be honest they all lie... I don't know of any ad network that can guarantee a set CPM rate.. That's how the game is played... One can complain, or like myself work with multiple ad networks...


By the way, I have one site within GG network... And yes I have gotten paid, so i'm cool...

This I know. But, others don't. That's the point..

Yes! What Dede said. Some of these networks pay only who they want to pay to keep the fuss down. This is the same way it happened with that other network targeting blogs-of-color. They paid certain high-profile sites first and everyone else had to hustle to get even one payment. They should have just called it a pyramid scheme. Some folks still go for that kind of thing.

Like I said on the Twitter thread, I'm using a combination of Google AdSense, Glam, BlogHer, and a few relevant affiliates. Seems to work pretty well, so I never joined the GG one. But then I'm not really looking to sign up with one of these newer networks unless I've heard good things and I'm not holding my breath. ;)

The GG saga is such a joke. After the Midas touch, the GG touch, anything they touch gets ground. Would be interesting to reach out to management to hear their take on this. Markus?

One thing I've noticed. This blog seems very anti-ad network. This is a wrong view because this is the main way we purchase against black sites since so many of you have sub 1 million visitors (which is about 98% of all black targeted sites)

@markus
you said: "If you decide to try a new ad network, make sure you introduce their ads into your existing inventory slowly."

This couldnt be more wrong. Ad networks can only sell against what they see and most ad network servers will serve ads to sites than can finish campaigns....if you're only giving a test amount of impressions or turning the feed on and off and are brand new to boot make sure its a decent amount or you can't expect to get the more premium campaigns. SO your test method will fail 99% of the time (study the algorithms of serving across the major ad servers and you'll see what i say is true). We ASK ad network 'how much can X.com yield over Y period of time'...if all they see is a small pittance of your inventory they will probably guide the conversation to larger sites...so at least make your networks aware of what you can scale to.

You said: "Sell your Own Ads"
I agree but Sites should go for selling their own ads but realize there will always be a need for a quality fill service because last time I checked...absolutely no medium to large publishers are dealing with 100% sell out situations....no one (we even use networks to access myspace, yahoo, and many other large outlets when we don't see a need to deal with them direct). I lead a planning department of 39 planners....we're getting hit with offers and introductions left and right. One thing rings true though...we don't have time to speak to publishers than have sub 500k uniques per month...preferably 1 million (not the best utilization of our time since us agency folks have to track every movement we make for billing via time cards of which sales pitch attendance is part of that). In many niche areas we frequently use ad networks because its a better model for us to discover new sites and still support a great deal of smaller websites (we've dumped millions in 2008 into 3 ad networks with black and/or hispanic reach that I won't pub and we've had great success with that - we don't do business with news aggregators and publisher initiated networks at all because they don't understand what it means to be an ad network. I've flat out told BET that we would not use their ad network and to only chat with us about BET.com only).

I'll let you in on a little secret too...us agency folks take advantage of sites that use google vs an ad network because its so much cheaper.....we also know that if you're in a performance based ad network that we will get more impressions out of the deal especially with black sites because conversion is bad on about 90% of sites out there but we still get the branding effects.

So my advice
- Look for a CPM based network or two and stick with them for a few months at minimum
- Pick up the phone and call them if you're seeing less than desirable results and ask them what can you do to make things better
- Test a performance based network and jump ship after 3 months if your audience isnt converting with their ads
- Look for a niche network specialist if you're in the niche space (there are black networks, hispanic networks, gay networks, senior networks, pet networks, etc)
- Work with more than one network but not too many (we can see that)
- Stay away from networks that have their own advertising vehicles (you're getting screwed there)
- Stay away from new networks (this is why you're not getting paid)
- Realize that if you're small change in terms of traffic...don't expect a high yield but consider the ads that you're getting from your network as great placeholders to show us proof of concept of how their ads will look on your site
- Ask the network for advice on growing your traffic or even buy into them yourself
- Realize that your site isn't linear in worth as the next site just because you're going after the same audience so your CPM can vary widely. We always stipulate that a site must be optimized out of a plan if there is no interaction rates or conversions.
- Realize CPMs are not the same per campaign so no network will gaurantee you a set CPM but most networks offer you the possibility to set a floor (we pay a range from .05 to about 4.00 max for the ad networks we do business with)
- Ask networks if you can establish a floor or base CPM and if they can back-fill your inventory if that floor is not met (and don't be so aggressive on the floor)

It's really simple. But I will say that all of you anti-ad network anti-rep-firm folks are missing out on a lot of buys that exclusively flow through those channels.

If a lot of you worked to understand how money flows a little better - you would be much more well off and this is coming from a fellow African American that controls a combined advertising budget of over half a billion dollars per year of which around 15-20 million is spread to multicultural websites and for us about 60% or more of that business is via ad networks that we've worked with for at least the past 5 years with a very small amount being tested directly on a handful of sites and then rest is spread across the larger sites that you can predict because they can move the impressions.

@ Black Ad Guy - and that is the problem. You as a planner need to start asking the right questions and figure out what you are really trying to accomplish for your client. Page Views/Impressions or really connecting and reaching the potential target/profile --- hence a return on their advertising investment.

The problem here is ad agencies and media planners are following the same tried and true formula and as you already know - it's not working. You choose to continue to advertise on sites such as BET, Essence and other entertainment blogs to get the eyeballs but while doing this nothing understanding what "eye balls" are really seeing your ads. Is it your client’s target? Most likely in a general sense yes - but is it the target they really want.

You and your team and industry friends are contributing to placing African Americans/Blacks in a box - by choosing to repeatedly not advertise and support sites that are not talking about the norm - because they need to reach "500K" - let's be real - what sites that are not talking about Rihanna and Chris all day or Beyonce are getting those numbers?

We as a people are diverse and have all likes and interests - but I can't tell you how many sites die every day - because the product is fresh and needed but can't get a dollar from ad revenue and when they fall or enter intro a ad agency - they get played.

For example - Cover Girl might advertise on BET, Media Takeout, Bossip, Essence - but is this the reader profile or target that brand or product wants - most likely and more then often - no. I am sure when my little cousin or even me looks at Bossip every day I don't care what ad is on the site and even checking for it because its ads all over the site. For MTO - same thing. Why would I support a brand that is on that site. For me I put the two together brand and brand and if MTO is bootleg to me - so is the brand who choosing to advertise there - real talk.

No one may say yes Essence is – but if Cover Girl sends a RFP (request for proposal) and their target profile is a young, trendy, women of color – Essence/BET is the general sense may do ok – but there are many online portals for young, black women who your client would benefit more by advertising on. Also, but doing so you are reaching the new, younger, tastemakers who are and going to take the place of old media.

As for Ad Networks:
I think you are looking at this as an agency person and not a publisher. If you had a site you would understand - hence you are looking at this from another viewpoint.

1st Issue: Your comment that we are anti-agency. As someone who is currently with an ad agency and have been in one for a couple of years. I now know what 's good for me and my portal through trail and error. Most of these ad agencies are grouping sites in a sell. Which is understandable, but not always fair.

I can recall at my last agency I was grouped with the three top gossip/entertainment sites. So, when brands that were a direct match for my portal and audience we would get the scraps of the impressions - which again I understand. But, that is when agencies and brands need to figure out if they want quality over quantity. Hence, do you want a ad on a high - at times controversial site or do you want a site that the readers are the direct target and are more than likely to click-through and actually consider purchasing or supporting your clients product or service.

Also, you have to realize as a publisher - we are approached at least 3 times a month with deals like this and most of the time we are getting the wack part of the deal - so it's only normal - to feel anti-ad networks when you have been through this stuff - repeatedly.

Now let's go through your list:
"Stay away from new networks (this is why you're not getting paid)" and
"Stay away from networks that have their own advertising vehicles (you're getting screwed there)"

Dede: The point of the last two post here on Black Web. Most publishers online don't know this valuable information. They have no outlet to learn this. We are lucky to have Black Web and a group of online friends - but most of us can't mentor or walk all the new and emerging sites through this process and why they shouldn't do this.

" Ask the network for advice on growing your traffic or even buy into them yourself."

Dede: Most networks are not versed in telling you how to grow your site. They are not about educating their publishers. I remember when I asked a similar question to my past agency they told me become a Bossip. Now, I have nothing against Bossip - I happen to know the Bossip team - but as a publisher trying to do something new and fresh for Black women - to be told that by someone in an agency - tells me they are not informed about my mission and site goals (which I always share) and are looking for ways to get more page views by all means necessary - even if it's not right.

"Realize that if you're small change in terms of traffic...don't expect a high yield but consider the ads that you're getting from your network as great placeholders to show us proof of concept of how their ads will look on your site"

Dede: You as a media planner - need to look for what's new and what's next. As a small or mid sized publisher - you know most don't have the time and money to "prove" this to you. You need to do trial runs on certain sites to see the ROI and what happens when you try something new - hence getting on with a publisher as they grow. Most of the time - you all are the last to know what's hot and next - because of that exact same reason.

"Realize that your site isn't linear in worth as the next site just because you're going after the same audience so your CPM can vary widely. We always stipulate that a site must be optimized out of a plan if there is no interaction rates or conversions."

Dede: Ad agencies/planners - need to come up with a new initiative to work with these emerging publishers instead of pushing them into a situation like these ad agencies.

"It's really simple. But I will say that all of you anti-ad network"

Dede: I have been watching your comments lately and I see you seem very smart and informed as a media planner - but what you not informed on is being a publisher. Everything is not easy or "simple" if it was we would all be doing very well. You sir and your media planner family and thought process is what is keeping publishers from growing and getting their fair shake and opportunity for real revenue.

Thanks for the perspective Dede. I definitely know how to do my job lol. I see your posts here and they are very opinionated/polarizing in most cases but still good reads.

Guess what. I've worked for 2 publishers (1 mammoth/1 start up in the black space who folded because they didnt want to partner and monetize)...3 ad agencies...1 job on the client side... and 2 ad networks (in the television space).... Although I just dated myself there (i am less than 50 still lol) I am very well versed in all perspectives and only trying to give perspective on how cash flows, sales happen, and the importance of relationships and reps.

We *do* test some smaller sites directly (i believe I said that) but if they are too small and can't deliver on impressions...whats the point? We don't invest in ideas or forward thinking comments....we've been burned there too many times... It loses us money. We don't invest in aesthetics and pretty sites with 0 traffic but we may watch them for a few months. Also smaller sites tend to overcharge to compensate on the lack of traffic and most of the time still cant deliver. This doesnt make the best sense for our clients either. The strong survive....plain and simple. You yourself wouldnt let a person with a hammer and a box of nails build your house for a million dollars...its the same effect in how we need to maximize how we approach websites....working with a clearing house to support the smaller outlet sector is a better utilization of our time (we do the same to penetrate local market tv and radio stations -- meaning work with networks/rep firms)

We've kept our current client roster for the last 5 years and have had nothing but success in our campaigns in the multicultural area (otherwise i would be out of a job).

Great convo -- just trying to open some eyes so I don't see your resumes posted up on HotJobs from being stubborn lol. This week alone we've spent 1 million on ad networks with about 100k going to a black and hispanic network respectively because we want to be in that small site sector. Guess you wont be a part of that. Too bad! (keeping an eye on your site though and that pretty profile thumb wink- wink-wink)

Do your thing! It *may* work out!

@ BAAG:

I think part of what Dede is saying is that working with sites that get x amount of eyeballs isn't really being picky. Telling Black publishers to "get their numbers" up in order to reap the benefits of the market is counterintuitive in that it encourages selling out and questionable content.

I know a number of Black bloggers and site owners that produce content that is intelligent, non-exploitve, progressive and mature, but the advertisers that would most benefit from their audiences don't know about those sites because of your antiquated notions.

For example, there may be an advertiser out there that wants to place ads about a product or service that doesn't cater to the mainstream. They decide to work with an established ad network but all the network specializes in are gossip and hip-hop site that get millions of pageviews per month. Not exactly the advertiser's target market (since that type of exposure may not translate into someone actually purchasing their product) but they take a chance based on the network's brand or rep and potential exposure. In the meantime, you have a publisher that courts the advertiser's specific market, but the site in question falls just below the number of hits the ad network needs in order to deem it viable. So now the advertiser loses out and so does the site that could've benefited from that business.

You keep thinking in terms of dollars but not sense.

@ Black Ad Guy - you have truly made my day! LOL - thanks so much.

Well - thanks so much for your comment and response. One thing I can assure is you wont see my resume there (kinda spoiled) and I will do everything in my power to try to keep my online family off there as well. See - that's the difference here - I like to educate and uplift those going through this mess.

As I stated earlier - I am with an agency - Black Rock Digital. As far as your recent ad buy - no worries there. If someone or a brand doesn't recognize me or my brand - then the lost is not mine. I can pretty much only speak for myself - but I would rather continue to keep my current lifestyle and goals/mission for Clutch/Cullen then to get an ad buy from someone or a brand that is questioning it or it's potential.

The sad thing here Mr. Ad Guy is why you are boasting your most recent ad buy - there are others out there that could benefit from it. As for "pretty" and happy Dede (that I am - thanks) I am happy to stick in there for the long haul.

I just hope your resume doesn't cross my desk one day - cause - I wouldn't wanna test that out - cause my client roster wouldn't want old thoughts and ways on my team making outdated decisions.

But, seriously - if you wanna talk to me - it's dsutton@clutchmagazine.com. (wink, wink)

As for my family - Nova, Afrobella, BlackWeb, Gina, Brown Sista, Black and Married with Kids and others - don't worry - you will get there with or without them. Don't compromise yourself or your mission for some money.